Bitcoin Taxation Support Growing Industry – Here are 5 ...

11-04 14:33 - 'DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KRATSCOIN AND BITCOIN' (self.Bitcoin) by /u/xia112 removed from /r/Bitcoin within 3-13min

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• The indivisible minimum KRATSCOIN unit is 0.00001 instead of 0.00000001 to denominate realistic currency rates in FOREX. Denomination cannot be determined or dictated by the value of a currency. If KRATSCOIN is valued at USD10,000.00 then the smallest unit of KRATSCOIN at 0.00001 = USD0.10 and nothing smaller than USD0.10 in KRATSCOIN.
Example: If USD1.00 = THB30.00 and the smallest denomination of USD is USD0.10, then a USD0.10 which is THB3.00, is unable to buy a piece of candy at THB1.00. Thus the USD must be converted into a smaller currency of THB in order to buy the THB1.00 candy.
• KRATSCOIN is in-line with standard International Foreign Currency Exchange Practice at indivisible minimum unit 0.00001.
• Each KRATSCOIN is equipped with a 13 digit “SERIAL CODES AND NUMBERS” and there will be a total of 2,100,000,000,000 SERIAL CODES in total.
Example1: 1st KRATSCOIN = AKDJFYRS.00000 Example2: 1st Fraction from 1st KRATSCOIN = AKDJFYRS.00001 Example3: 2nd Fraction from 2nd KRATSCOIN = AKDJFYRS.00002 Example4: Last KRATSCOIN = DLXVZKWR.00000 Example5: 1st Fraction from Last KRATSCOIN = DLXVZKWR.00001 Example6: 2nd Fraction from Last KRATSCOIN = DLXVZKWR.00002
• In Year 2015, Silk Road in DeepWeb utilization of Bitcoin in their transactions amounts to USD1.2billion spanning over 950,000 users. One may argue that Bitcoin is most utilized by the black market, which then maintains its value and worth among other factors. However, the USD1.2bil a year over 950,000 users are far fetch from the Legitimate Users in comparison. Bitcoin transactions runs into USD40.0bil in recent Legitimate Crypto Exchanges. In summary, legitimate transaction of crypto currencies is many times larger use in illegal transactions.
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FIAT AND CRYPTO:
• Fiat Currency is backed by Governments/Countries itself. What determines the value of a currency is the economic health, demand, growth, political stability to name a few, of the respective country. Before 1930, most fiat currencies were backed by gold and silver.
• Since 1971, U.S. citizens have been able to utilize Federal Reserve Notes as the only form of money that for the first time had no currency with any gold or silver backing. This is where you get the saying that U.S. dollars are backed by the “full faith and credit” of the U.S. Government - quoted in google.com.
• What backs crypto value is purely supply and demand. The demand creation of a crypto is its sole objective. To create demand, the crypto has to have a purpose. And most purpose commonly promoted is utility. The number of ways you can utilize the said crypto. The more utilization factors the more demand there is for it.
• There are other ways to substantiate value of a crypto and that is to back the crypto with a 1 to 1 ratio in assets or in USD. Then the question is, how 3,000 crypto currencies in circulation be monetary eco sustainable? Can anyone imagine walking into McDonald and view a chart of 3,000 different pricing? Which also means the crypto is a payment gateway pegging against USD instead of bearing any true characteristic of a currency.
• A country’s currency is in its own legit form of legal tender, the only currency acceptable under financial sovereigns of a country. People in the world must be made to understand that. Retailers in Thailand cannot put up products price tags in EUROS/USD, it is illegal. It has to be in Thai Baht.
• It is hardly imaginable for everyone in the world to retail with a Crypto-Currencies at a rate of 7 transactions per second. When mining nodes are reduced due to non-performing mining ratio, mining blocks in the Blockchain will significantly be limited too, rendering delays in transactions while usage increases.
• In time to come, as trends of crypto picks up, Thailand can issue BAHT COIN or UK the STERLING COIN, exactly what China wishes to do. Digital RMB, but would such crypto currencies be fully decentralized? We all have our answers. Absurd to even think of producing Thai Baht, Pound Sterling or Chinese Yuan at the cost of electricity. It is currencies in digital forms.
KRATSCOIN is not meant for that purpose. In some opinion, apart from utilization, a crypto can be for safekeeping, an entity for keeping money while allowing easy liquidation, at a click of a mobile button, not to mention sending or transferring without the trouble of going to banks, which was the original purpose of Bitcoin to begin with. Therefore, KRATSCOIN would be better termed as Crypto Commodity, sharing similarities as Metal Commodities.
An individual cannot use gold to make a purchase, neither can one eat gold. It can only be kept or invest in for appreciative value over time. Gold is being exampled for its scarcity which reasons for its higher value over its cousin, silver or bronze. Who or what determines the value of gold? Just like any other crypto, demand by humanity. As in all other commodities, it must also be placed in checks by governments. To put in checks, serial numbers are introduced to protect a country’s commodities outflows or illegal exports.
Humanity made Bitcoin a reality. Acceptance by the majority members of the public made Bitcoin to what is it today with the trust they entrusted it with, or is the majority public hopping on the band wagon to make a few quick extra bucks? Whatever the reasons are, the characteristics of Crypto Currencies are only matched by the behavior of Commodities.
SERIALIZED COINS - WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PUBLIC: Every currency has its own remarkable name, design and colors. Dollars, Euros, Pound, Tugrik, Peso, Rupee, Rupiah, Dina, Ringgit, Baht and the list carries on. One thing every currency have in common - Serial Numbers.
In any crime, investigators will firstly establish motives and mode of operation, both of which are very likely related to money. So following the money trial is a natural thing to do for investigators/authorities and it has become a common practice. Crimes require funding ie robbers need money to buy guns to carry out its robbing activities. Cutting off financing will reduce criminal activities. That’s the approach governments of the WORLD have adopted for crime fighting.
Perhaps people do not realize this while most do not feel the pinch. Humanity tends to take life for granted until apocalypse happens. Take a minute to visualize the tallest tower in your homeland collapse into a pile of dust with thousands of casualties effecting everything else that comes to mind. Imagine a family member, just 1 is enough, is among those casualties.
• Imagine if monetary system is not in place and drug dealers, among many, roam the earth freely distributing what can be death threatening substance to your kids. What if you are mugged of your inheritance [items left to you by your father] that is beyond retrieval? As for crypto enthusiast, what if your wallet gets hacked as even the mighty Pentagon gets hacked. All the above can go away if the crypto system leaves a trail for hound dogs to sniff out. Money Trail or Serial Codes Trail to be exact.
• Citizens rely on governments and their countries to do what is best for them to lead their daily lives, flourish, advance, improve and strive but at the same time, citizens want to take away the single most important thing deemed crucial in the hierarchy of humanity from governments with additional boastful remarks such as “I transferred $400 million from one corner of the earth to another corner in a single transaction and no governments can do anything about it”.
• In-short, to boast unregulated financial movement is to arrogantly promote crime without realizing it while challenging the world’s monetary authority. Oldest advice in the book teaches us never to pick a fight we can’t win.
• Serial Coded Coins does not take away the financial movement freedom nor does it take away your privacy. It merely provides Authorities the necessary means needed for crime prevention and fighting. It only re-inforce security and safety. SERIALIZED COINS - WHAT IT MEANS FOR GOVERNMENTS: • Governments are relentlessly trying to find new ways to keep track of crypto transactions. Crypto Currency Exchanges, just like all other Financial Institutions and Banks, are required to practice the most stringent Know Your Customer (widely known as KYC) process. The KYC is designed to provide governing agencies and authorities with information pertaining to crypto ownerships.
• But no governments can have information on Peer-to-Peer (also known as P2P) transactions unless the government in question launch a full scale Federal Investigation on certain suspected individuals seeking Wallet Developers to unveil the ownership of certain wallet addresses. Do not forget, National and Global Security trumps Privacy Act. Refusal to co-operate under the pretext of Global or National Security will only result in an out-right ban, which is exactly what happened to Blackberry.
• Questions to Governments – What if Wallet Developers or Crypto Exchanges shuts down which can happen for various reasons be it foul-play, sinister or forcefully under threat? What if servers are damaged and ruined? An EMP strike or a simple magnet can make it happen. Information/identities of suspected customers of such addresses shall be lost forever and along with it the Money Trial.
• The most probable way of evading Authorities with crypto assets are developing an e-wallet for own illicit purpose. Since the cost of developing an e-wallet is relatively low in considerable cost to hiding, what can governments do to flush out these ants from the vast networks of tunnels?
• With Serialized Coded Crypto Assets, it doesn’t matter if servers of Exchanges or Wallets are destroyed. The Serial Codes of each token/coin enables governments of every participating country to track both origin and destination by identifying records of each token/coin in wallet address. It can disappear into a cold wallet but emerging some place later yet Authorities can still detail which particular token/coin has at one moment of time been into which wallet, on what day and date.
• If the battle of financial crimes can be resolved with a simple Serialize Coded Crypto Asset, the eradication of corruptions, money laundering, unlawful proceeds and terrorism financing will be made possible. Criminals can no longer exploit the genius creation of Sathoshi – Blockchain and Crypto-Currencies.
• Global Security, Anti-Terrorism Financing and Money Laundering could just be excuses granting government agencies the need to have access to financial information in the Monetary System. Nonetheless, it is in the interest of every nation that capital outflow is controlled. Capital Outflow is most frequent when the economy of a country is deteriorating. In the face of an economy meltdown, monetary flow is most needed and yet citizens tend to transfer monies further away illegally from their own country in an act of selfishness. This would not be tolerated by any country. Serial Coded Coin shall prove this attempt futile.
• In most part of Asian Countries, many crypto-currency mining operations are carried out illegally. The legality sits on thin fine line where Authorities can pin only stealing of electricity as a major concern to the respective country. Since most Power Companies belongs to the Country in one way or another, it is financially damaging to Power Producers and Utility Suppliers. Serial Codes can determine if the KRATSCOIN is mined legally or illegally making it difficult for miners or mining farms to mine crypto while avoiding making electricity payments. Will this deterrent disrupt the chain of KRATSCOIN supply? That’s not how Blockchain Tech works. TAXATIONS - WHAT IT MEANS FOR PUBLIC AND GOVERNMENTS: • Taxation cannot be imposed on “Illegal & Unlawful Proceeds” instead confiscation is enforced in many countries. Origins or proceeds of Serialized Coded Crypto Assets can be easily identified by the Serial Codes in-conjunction with the Blockchain. This exercise can evidently proof the legitimacy of the aforesaid token/coin. By “Illegal & Unlawful Proceeds” also refers to crypto coins obtained via illegal mining operations.
• Taxation on Crypto Assets are calculated on profits deriving from the sale/disposal of the crypto Assets. If we are small crypto believers, the amount of taxation rendered by Inland Revenue will be insignificant. Why risk Freedom of Life over Freedom of Small Monies. If we are big crypto believers, taxation on Serialized Coded Coins can be considered added security to your assets protection.
• By adopting Serialized Crypto Assets, declaration is made easily possible via proof of token/coin origin via the Blockchain. If the Authorities can know where our crypto assets come from, the Authorities will know where it will disappear to. It is taxation cum insurance in one tiny sum. This added security with freedom feature will encourage self-declarations of crypto assets to Authorities and Agencies. PRIVACY & ANONIMITY: • Many may be skeptical of their wealth being tracked and monitored. But in this era of technological advance society, everything we touches has our signature. Banks, iPhones, Samsung Mobiles, Google, Facebook, Whatsapp, WeChat, LINE, Viber, Facebook, Properties, Utilities. Almost everything. It is to this fact that there is a need for Privacy Protection Act.
• As explained before, Crypto Currency Exchange KYC procedures is designed to expose the identity of Crypto Assets ownership. The Blockchain is supposed to serve as a transparent information platform. The question of privacy over Serialized Coded Coins does not exist, it does not make Serialized Coded Coins ownership any less private.
• Ownership of wallet addresses shall always remain anonymous while the only way Authorities can get to it is through Wallet Developers by virtue of Global/National Security Threats or by a Court Order as per the Privacy Protection Act. SAFETY & SECURITY (CODED CRYPTO VS FIAT + COMMODITIES): • No human mind can memorize the millions of serial numbers printed on fiat currencies. The records of Serialized Coded Coins will forever be in the Blockchain embedded within each transaction from wallet to wallet.
• Serialized Commodities such as gold can be melted down. Diamonds recrafted. Fiat double printed. But not Serialized Coded Crypto Assets.
• Should an accessory system be added into the KRATSCOIN Blockchain, allowing reports on criminal activity be made within the Blockchain, notifying all ledgers of certain stolen Serial Coded Coins, enabling WARNINGS and forbidding next transaction of that particular Serial Coded Coin, wouldn’t this function enhance protection. A theft deterrent function which can never be achieved with physical gold, diamonds or fiat. KRATSCOIN SUMMARY: • Most crypto currencies have not reach a level of security alert for governments. This could be the only reason why a possible ban has not been discussed. China and India has begun efforts to control or ban crypto currencies in their quest to combat capital outflow, writer’s personal opinion. The EU has stopped Libra from implementation. “A company cannot be allowed Authoring Power for issuance of currencies” quoted the governments. KRATSCOIN is fully decentralized with no ownership nor control by any country, company or individual. Once again, the beauty of Bitcoin decentralization concept prevails.
• “There is no such thing as a world currency. However, since World War II, the dominant or reserve currency of the world has been the U.S. dollar” quoted in google.com.
• Most countries have “Foreign Reserves” as backing to a country’s fiat currency. It is a mean of “back up” attempt should all factors above mentioned leading to the value of their currencies collapse. Then what will happen if the Country of the Foreign Reserves collapse?
• Serial Coded KRATSCOIN belongs to no one, no country, no company and therefore theoretically shall not be effected by politics, war or global economy meltdown yet everyone, every country and every government is able to benefit from KRATSCOIN.
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DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KRATSCOIN AND BITCOIN
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The fundamentals of bitcoin as an asset exist and they are stupider than you can imagine

tldr; tldr; Hodling is deflationary and all those wild price swings from bitcoin are changes in the fundamental value of bitcoin. Really.
tldr; Imagine there is a market where $100 worth of goods are sold every day using 100 bitcoins which cycle around. Then each bitcoin would be worth $1. Now suppose that 50 of the bitcoins were being held in anticipation of growing in value so only 50 bitcoins were cycling each day. For all the goods in the market to be sold every day each bitcoin will now be worth $2.
Introduction There has been a lot of discussion about what the fundamental value of bitcoin is. The consensus view in this subreddit is that the fundamental value is zero. I argue in this post that the fundamental value of bitcoin is whatever the price is right now, or a something close to it. This is because the fundamentals of bitcoin are stupid. Unimaginably stupid.
Bitcoin as Currency Bitcoin is a terrible currency compared to normal statist filthy fiat. Bitcoins are often permanently lost due to hacking or easily made mistakes. Transactions take considerable time to be confirmed. The price is highly volatile. But this post isn’t going into those issues in depth.
There is little evidence for mainstream Bitcoin use. A report by Morgan Stanley on the acceptance of Bitcoin from online retailers found that only 3 out of the 500 online retailers tracked accepted Bitcoin payments, a decrease from 5 in the previous year. The report concluded: “Bitcoin acceptance is virtually zero and shrinking”.
The number of transaction on darknet markets is large. On darknet markets users buy illegal products using cryptocurrencies (not just Bitcoin). Due to their illegal nature, it is impossible to know the exact value of transactions that take place on them. Between February 2011 and July 2013 the darknet market Silk Road had 1,229,465 transactions comprising 9,519,644 bitcoins in revenue. Darknet markets, along with ransomware payments are the only uses where there is evidence of a substantial number of bitcoin transactions taking place.
To work at scale darknet markets require cryptocurrency to pay for goods on sale. The anonymous nature of cryptocurrency allows transactions to take place without the buyer or the seller knowing anything about each other (although if a buyer has drugs mailed to them the seller will know who they are). If darknet markets used another form of payment then law enforcement could buy something and then track both the money going to the seller and the commission paid to the darknet market. It isn’t true as many people have claimed that nothing backs bitcoin. Bitcoin is backed by darknet markets.
There are a few kinds of people who buy bitcoin and want to spend it. They include drug buyers, those who need to pay off ransomware, money launders, fraudsters, and a few others but for simplicity’s sake I will just call them drug buyers. Likewise, there are a few types of people who sell products for bitcoin but again for simplicity’s sake I will call them drug sellers.
Non-circularity Bitcoin is a currency with a property that I call non-circularity. With Actual Money, when I buy something in a shop, the money I paid with goes towards the wages of the staff, rent and the products themselves among other expenses. This money then flows on to others. When a drug seller receives bitcoin in exchange for their drugs they can’t use the bitcoin to pay for their groceries or to pay their rent. They must exchange the bitcoin for filthy fiat to buy food. The inability to use bitcoin for further purchases means it is a non-circular currency. Bitcoin is a medium of a medium of exchange.
A full bitcoin transaction thus consists of three parts:
  1. A drug buyer goes to a bitcoin exchange to get bitcoin in exchange for filthy fiat
  2. The drug buyer goes to the DNM to exchange bitcoin for drugs from the drug seller
  3. The drug seller goes to the bitcoin exchange to get filthy fiat in exchange for bitcoin
An exchange is any place which matches buyers and sellers of bitcoin. This includes online exchanges like Coinbase as well as LocalBitcoins which matches people for face to face transactions. As nobody receives bitcoin for payment except drug dealers, the only place for drug buyers to get bitcoin is an exchange. The extreme volatility of bitcoin means that drug buyers and sellers try to complete the process as quickly as possible and avoid holding onto bitcoin.
Perfect Price Unstickiness For normal currencies prices are sticky. That means that nominal prices do not respond quickly to changing economic conditions. In contrast bitcoin has what I call perfect price unstickiness so the price of goods in bitcoin changes almost perfectly to changes in the value of bitcoin.
This is because prices for items which can be bought with bitcoin are never actually set in bitcoin, probably due to the high volatility. Instead they are set in fiat. The amount in fiat can either be listed directly, so $US50 for these drugs, or the price can be listed in the converted amount of bitcoin, 0.005BTC if 1 BTC = $US10,000. Changes in the price of bitcoin on exchanges are instantly reflected in the prices of drugs in bitcoins on darknet markets.
Hodling Another feature of bitcoin that should be considered is that people hodl bitcoin. The word comes from a typo of ‘hold’. Bitcoin is often bought on exchanges not for use as a currency to buy drugs, but as an asset in expectation of a price rise. Hodlers are the third type of user of bitcoin along with drug buyers and drug sellers. Although they don’t use it.
What’s the difference between an asset that is held and one that is hodled? This is admittedly vague, but an asset is hodled if it is being held, it can be held for long periods at low costs, it can but isn’t generating any income and there are no plans to generate income from it soon.
Cash under the mattress is being hodled, cash in my wallet that I am going to buy stuff with soon is not. Money in my bank account is generating income and so is not hodled. Bitcoin held in anticipation of price rises is being hodled. Bitcoin bought to buy drugs but which has not been used yet is not. Gold stored in a vault is being hodled, gold used for electronics purposes is not (jewellery is a harder case). A vacant block of land with no plans to develop it or use it for anything is being hodled but one that is soon going to have an apartment block built on it is not.
Commodities can be held and do not generate income until sold but it is expensive to hold most commodities for long periods of time. This prevents most commodities from being hodled.
Velocity The velocity of money is the average number of times a unit of fiat changes hands in a period. You can skip the next three paragraphs as they are a little annoying and you can get by without them. Just know that I am defining the velocity of bitcoin as what the velocity of bitcoin would be if no bitcoin was being hodled.
Due to hodling, the velocity of bitcoin under the conventional definition can vary wildly. Consider two cases. Both have 100 bitcoins, 100 transactions a day and all non-hodled bitcoins are spent each day. The first has no hodled bitcoins, the second 50 hodled bitcoins. The first has a velocity of bitcoin of 1 transaction per day, the second is 0.5 per day.
I want a definition of velocity of bitcoin that is not impacted by changes in hodling. I did consider doing this analysis through changes in velocity but the final formula is easier to understand if we find a definition of velocity of bitcoin that is independent of the level of hodling.
The definition that achieves this is (Length of Time)/(Average length of time to complete transaction). When there is no hodling the two definitions agree but the new definition is unchanged by any rise or fall in the level of hodling, which is what we need. From this point on when I refer to the velocity of bitcoin I am referring to the second definition.
The actual time to complete a bitcoin transaction seems to be over a week. In an interview one vendor claimed that it took one week for the bitcoin to be released from escrow and longer to convert it to actual money.
Intuitive argument Assume that the amount of drugs sold on darknet markets changes little from week to week. If the price of bitcoin doubles over the week then the number of bitcoins flowing through the darknet markets will halve. So where have the bitcoins gone? Drug buyers and sellers don’t have them. The only option is hodlers. In fact, it was the hodlers buying the bitcoins that caused the price to change.
Formula The conventional formula for the relationship between velocity of money (V), nominal amount of money (M), price level (P) and real economic activity (Q) is
V*M = P*Q
I am going to change that equation slightly so it now concerns the velocity of bitcoin (V), the total number of bitcoins (M), the price level of bitcoin (P), the total value in fiat of all economic transactions (Q) and the proportion of bitcoins that are hodled (h). If h*M bitcoins are being hodled then there are (1-h)*M bitcoins being used in economic transactions. The new equation is
V*(1-h)*M = P*Q
Next we isolate P:
P = V*(1-h)*M/Q
If the price level changes from 1 to 1.1 that means that there has been 10% inflation over the period and that the value of bitcoin has fallen. To find the value of a single bitcoin we have to take the reciprocal of P and that gives a formula for the true value of bitcoin:
1/P = Q/[V*(1-h)*M]
In the rest of the post when I write the price of bitcoin I mean the price bitcoin sells for on exchanges. I establish in the next section that this price must be close to the true value of bitcoin.
Equilibrium This section uses the flow of bitcoin model established earlier. We assume no activity from hodlers and that economic users do not hodl bitcoin (not true but it simplifies and does not hurt the model). Furthermore, we assume that all activity on the bitcoin exchanges happens, then all activity on the darknet markets happens. Drug sellers sell their bitcoin to drug buyers, then drug buyers use the bitcoin to buy drugs on the darknet markets. Neither the exchanges or the darknet markets charge commissions. I use specific numbers but my reasoning is easily generalizable.
To establish why the equation is true we must consider what happens if the actual price is higher or lower than the price given by the formula. First let us suppose that the price is lower than the price predicted by the formula. Over the time period of a day suppose that Q = 100 (so $100 worth of transactions a day), V = 1 (transactions take a day), M = 100 (100 bitcoins) and h = 0.5 (50 bitcoins are hodled). This gives a predicted price of $2. Suppose the price is instead $1.
Every day there are $100 worth of drugs available to be sold and buyers willing to buy $100 worth of drugs. At a price of $1 and with only 50 bitcoins available for economic use each day that means that only $50 worth of drugs can be sold. This would drop Q to 50 and immediately correct the equation.
However, there are buyers and sellers who want more drug dealing than that. Some buyers are not going to be able to get their drugs given the current price. Some of them will be willing to pay higher prices for bitcoin to guarantee they can have their drugs. Suppose that the drug sellers have 50 bitcoins (hodlers also have 50). They want to sell their 50 bitcoins to drug buyers on an exchange. Some drug buyers then bid the price of bitcoin up to $1.10 (for example). This benefits other drug buyers as now $55 worth of drug transactions can take place each day. In this way, the price will be bid up to $2, the equilibrium price.
If the price is $1 and the drug buyers have the 50 bitcoins then they will spend the bitcoins to buy $50 worth of drugs and then we are in the situation above.
Now suppose the reverse happens and the actual price is higher than the predicted price. Let the actual price be $4, with all the same example values from the previous example, so the predicted price is $2. On the exchange drug sellers have 50 bitcoins worth $200 to sell. Drug buyers want to buy $100 worth of bitcoin. At this price only 25 bitcoins are sold. To ensure they sell more of their bitcoin, drug buyers bid down the price. If the price does not immediately reach $2 then the left-over bitcoins will be held by the drug sellers until the next day when the price will be bid down again.
The drug sellers holding bitcoin for a few extra days is not the same as hodling because they are actively trying to sell them on an exchange but they haven’t because the price isn’t in equilibrium. They could instead decide to sell only 25 bitcoins and hodl the other 25. This would raise h to 0.75 and the price would be in equilibrium again.
Now suppose that the drug buyers have 50 bitcoins and the price is $4. Then $100 worth of drugs are bought with 25 bitcoins. The drug sellers will not be able to sell their bitcoin as drug buyers already have enough bitcoin to buy the next round of drugs they want. The drug buyers spend their last 25 bitcoin and drug sellers now have 50 bitcoins and the situation is as above.
In conclusion, the price of Bitcoin is fundamentally determined by speculators and brought into equilibrium by criminals.
Inflows and Outflows of Hodling The previous section treated the level of hodling as constant, except when drug buyers or sellers decide to hodl extra bitcoins that are in their possession. Now we will treat the amount of hodled bitcoins as changing. The next topic to consider is the relationship between filthy fiat spent to hodl bitcoins and the bitcoin price.
To calculate how much it costs to raise the hodl ratio from 0 to h we assume that the bitcoins are bought continuously. We integrate the function Q/[M*V*(1-t/M)] between 0 and h*M. The result is (Q/V)ln[1/(1-h)].
To double the price of bitcoin by taking h from 0 to 0.5 will cost (Q/V)ln(2). In fact, it will always cost this amount to double the price of bitcoin as we can see by finding the difference between the total value of hodled bitcoin when we consider hodling levels of h and (h+1)/2.
This means that the price of bitcoin rises exponentially when a constant amount of new money buys bitcoin to hodl. I would illustrate this with a log-scale graph but I don’t know where to find one. It also means that the market capitalisation of a cryptocurrency gives very little idea about how much the cryptocurrency is worth. It is an impossibility for all hodlers to receive the Actual Money that they think their bitcoin is worth.
Volatility People hoping to get rich and their buying and selling bitcoin is what causes bitcoin’s extreme volatility. Theoretically this could be stopped if there was a bank where hodlers could deposit their bitcoins and earn interest. However, for this to work would require the existence of a bitcoin bank which is not a Ponzi which seems like an unlikely outcome.
Hodling Gold A quick digression into gold, but I suspect someone has already thought of what follows. We can consider gold like a conventional commodity with conventional supply and demand curves (the real world for all commodities is more complicated but this is going to be quick). But people also hodl gold. If hodlers decide to buy $100 million worth of gold produced in the year, then that will change the equilibrium price. The new price is such that the difference between the quantity demanded by non-hodlers and the quantity supplied at that price multiplied by the price is 100 million.
If the overall level of hodling declines then the reverse happens. The hodlers sell an amount of gold, that amount is the difference between the amount supplied and demanded. The hodlers earn that amount multiplied by the new lower price. (I assumed people bought a fiat amount of gold and sold a volume of gold to make things easier).
Without another hodler to take on the gold or an improvement in market conditions, the hodlers are guaranteed a loss. To make a profit hodling gold you need there to be hodlers to sell it on to (or an improvement in the underlying factors). It follows that all the gold hodled in the world today cannot be sold without causing the fundamentals of gold to collapse. With 40% of the gold produced in 2017 being hodled this will eventually become a significant issue.
Full Reserve Banking Another place where we can consider the impact of hodling is full reserve banking. It is a form of banking where banks are required to have cash on hand equal to the full amount in all demand deposit accounts. The bank does not lend this money. This contrasts with the present system where banks are only required to have a certain fraction of this amount on hand, called fractional reserve banking. Money in a fractional reserve bank account is not being hodled (or is, but to a more limited degree) as it is being lent on to other people and it is generating income for the depositor.
Deposits under full reserve banking are hodling. They are like cash stuffed under a mattress but have better security. In a recession people increase their saving rates. Much of this additional saving will be in liquid assets because of fears of economic trouble. This rise in deposits under full reserve is an increase in hodled cash which then causes deflation. This is a big problem in a recession. (Somebody else has probably already made this observation).
Velocity and Value Consider the equation of bitcoin’s value again. Notice that the value increases when V decreases. Which means that the length of time to complete a transaction has increased. Bitcoin is an asset and a currency and its value as an asset increases as the length of time it takes to complete a transaction increases. This is a minor bit of stupidity which surprised me but seems obvious in retrospect as if bitcoins take longer to be processed then they must be worth more so that all transactions can happen. (This is assuming that a decrease in V does not also cause a decrease in Q which might be caused by drug buyers and sellers switching to a different cryptocurrency).
Hodler Behavior With one exception which I might make in another post I make no assumptions about hodler behaviour. I think they are buying and selling with no rational basis. But there are two rational reasons why someone would expect the price of bitcoin to rise: increased economic activity using the cryptocurrency in the darknet markets or an increased level of hodling in the future. The DNM is an actual economic activity but due to its illegality knowing anything about the amounts involved is impossible for almost everyone as is predicting their trends. Future hodling levels are also impossible to predict, unless you run a pump and dump. We can’t expect any sort of rational behavior from hodlers.
Nakamoto Scheme Preston Byrne developed the concept of a Nakamoto Scheme to describe cryptocurrencies because of how they differed from Ponzis and pyramid schemes. While bitcoin has been frequently called a Ponzi or pyramid scheme it is clearly something different. There are no “dividends” paid or any sort of organised structure. There are similarities, notably early adopters make their money at the expense of later adopters. Like in pyramid schemes hodlers try to convince new people to join in.
It is best to consider bitcoin as a type of asset which is uniquely suited for a pump and dump. When hodlers buy bitcoin, and encourage others to do the same (the pump) the fundamental price of bitcoin really is raised by these actions which helps the pump.
To add to Byrne’s work, we should put the properties of cryptocurrency assets at the centre of the scheme. A Nakamoto scheme works like this: first create a cryptocurrency and keep most of it for yourself. Then release it and try to get as many other people hodling as possible and try to get the darknet markets to adopt it (I’m looking at you Monero). This increases the fundamental value of the asset. Then dump your hodlings. Pocket the actual money. This is probably legal right now. But I’m not a law-knowing person.
For the hodler the Nakamoto scheme is like going to a party. You arrive and leave later on. If there are more people at the party when you leave compared to when you arrived then you’ve made a profit. There is also drug dealing going on at the party. The change in the level of drug dealing also impacts your profits. You have to try and get more people to come to the party and be careful of everyone else at the party who have the exact same incentives as you. It is a weird new form of scam.
Lower bound on price While the price of bitcoin can theoretically be infinitely high there is a lower bound on the price when the hodling ratio is zero. For given levels of Q, V and M the value of bitcoin can never go below Q/[V*M] (the highest possible price for bitcoin is when 1 satoshi is equal to the value of a transaction).
Some bitcoins have been permanently lost due to people losing their wallet keys or bitcoins being sent to the wrong address. If we suppose that H is the proportion of coins that have been permanently lost then the actual lower bound is Q/[V*(1-H)*M]. Note that a hodler losing their coins does not change the present fundamental value of bitcoin.
What could cause bitcoin’s price to go lower? Besides a mass hodler sell-off the obvious reason is a permanent decline in Q. What could cause this? Law enforcement have successfully shut down many darknet markets but others have replaced them quickly. What could really hurt darknet markets is increased government scrutiny of exchanges. When governments realise that bitcoin has no use beyond criminal transactions and speculation they might decide to treat every bitcoin transaction as inherently suspicious and regulate exchanges heavily. This will make bitcoin much harder to use for criminal transactions and thus greatly decrease Q and the value of bitcoin.
Previous work This post is not entirely original. Satoshi himself said that if a bitcoin user wanted to give a donation to everyone else then they should delete the keys to their wallet and increase the value of everybody else’s bitcoins. I realised that someone who hodled a bitcoin would temporarily have the same effect.
More significantly Joseph C Wang came up with a formula very similar to mine. A significant difference is that he thought increased economic activity with bitcoin would not cause an increase in bitcoin’s value but an increase in its velocity. My model has nominal prices of drugs in bitcoin falling when Q increases. Wang has prices remaining the same and the velocity of bitcoin increasing to handle the extra transactions. I developed my formula before I became aware of Wang’s work.
Further Topics This post is over 4000 words so I have not gone into depth on a few subjects like the costs of block rewards (higher than you think), shocks like darknet market shutdowns, why bitcoin can’t fall to a liquidity trap, how to value a cryptocurrency that isn’t being used for economic transactions and why it makes sense that bitcoin and bcash had a higher combined value at the time of the fork compared to bitcoin alone. If there is demand I’ll put together a second post which will cover these issues.
submitted by GBerkeley1734 to Buttcoin [link] [comments]

Big Blocker coming clean on wanting vindication. Vindication check, lets move on.

I'm not really a 100% big blocker. No one is. We all want this thing to scale etc. For the past 2 years there have been some serious bullying on the other sub. This move in BCH is sort of like the scene in a movie where the underdog gets to beat up on the bully, or where the bully gets his karma.
I don't want bitcoin to die,,,, but I have been bullied for so long for saying that I want big blocks that I feel the need for vindication against my attacker. I have been pushed around and trolled. I have been called names and it's all in good fun, but I feel the need for vindication against these people who were so obviously wrong about bitcoin cash surviving day one (tone vays).
Bitcoin cash is the best thing to happen to bitcoin since they shut down the silk road.
We should all be able to see that, and once we take away the emotions of this abusive relationship we have had for the past 2 years it's clear.
I don't want bitcoin to die, but I want the bitcoin small block bullies to have pie in their face, and the price action is that pie.
The market will decide, and the market showed some major support for large blocks.
I have officially got the pie in the face of the bullies who talked shit on me for the past 2 years.
Today is the day I can say my need for vindication is satisfied.
Tone Vays streamed live during the fork and really thought bitcoin cash would die on day one. The market was so crystal clear that it would not happen that way, but somehow people tune in to him. He debated Roger Ver and got his ass handed to him and is so wrong on so many levels but people tune in.
bitcoin 2x was totally going to win, and the cancellation of it was a win for bitcoin cash, not bitcoin and the market knows it. Bitcoin 2x has segwit and is harder to scale than bitcoin cash, the reason 2x was cancelled was to make sure bitcoin cash was the winner. This may be letting the cat out of the bag, but it's so obvious. I am a no one, I don't communicate with any groups, but its so obvious that the 2x people got together and decided bitcoin cash was a better way to go then split into 2x and 1x, then fight 1x then fight themselves when it came down to 2x and BCH.
Canceling the 2x fork means BCH just has one fight, instead of two.
The market vindicated all the people who were putting their balls on the table and supported BCH from day one. Mined it from day one. Bought the dips from day one.
Now that I have my vindication and the rage is out of my heart I see my portfolio. I have 90% of the BTC i started with and 10% converted to BCH. I win either way, but I win double if both chains succeed.
Before today I was fighting to be sure bitcoin cash was given the chance to survive. After yesterdays market actions I can see that it will. Now that survival is guaranteed I want this baby to thrive. The best way to thrive is to adapt to the environment and remove hostilities.
Big blockers don't need bitcoin to die for us all to win. Big blockers just need the space to do their own thing and let the market decide.
Take a guy like Roger. He didn't sell all his BTC. He is not stupid. He has a dog in both races.
We should all do the same. Let us big blockers have our fun. You have your own developers and they will lead you somewhere. Could be to oblivion, but maybe a settlement layer is needed. Maybe digital platinum is needed. Let the market decide.
I have skin in both games now that my need for vindication is satisfied I realize that I make the most profit, and have the most choices if both chains win.
We need a unity MEME, like two rockets side by side for those of us who want both chains to win. I did a huge post on how all these choices are binary and some people there really changed my mind. These are not binary (although I argued that they are, I was not seeing the big picture).
Lets move beyond vindication, lets move beyond trolling and come together to learn from each other about this ride to the moon.
I can't help but to picture Ice man and Maverick from the movie top gun.
They didn't get along at first, there was competition and struggle but in the end there was the famous quote, "you can be my wing man anytime".
well I am a big blocker who owns BTC, and who wants both chains to compete to the best of their ability. Both chains can pick a style and win.
Ice man was cold and calculated and would wear you down, Mavrick was young and cocky and would make bold moves. Both styles did the job.
So let Mavrick be Mavrick, and let the Ice Man be the Ice Man.
If I was headed to the moon in a single rocket I am sure to be more confidant knowing a second rocket was also on the same voyage. Especially when I am invested in both.
I think small blockers will notice that now that we have vindication of the need for large block research we don't need to be on the attack all the time.
lets just chill and get to the moon.
"I feel the need, the need for speed"
Sort of a rant, and an anologoly mash up, but a few of you will get it.
submitted by Jdamb to btc [link] [comments]

The proportion of full nodes to lightweight nodes is not as important as the quantity of full nodes... and other observations

Sometimes Core supporters seem to lack common sense and this is an argument that is easily proven with common sense. Imagine a decentralized network with 4 full nodes and only 4 full nodes. Guess what? According to core that is 100% decentralization and perfect. Except it is not so perfect is it? Imagine a network with 4 million full nodes and 100 million lightweight nodes. That is only "4% decentralization". Yet it is obviously superior.
One of the hard calculations you must figure out after making this observation is that the quantity of full nodes is dynamic and based on different factors. Obviously the "use case" of the bitcoin network has some influence on how many people use it and certainly the amount of people that use bitcoin is somehow related to the amount of full nodes that there will be. Anything that restricts use cases and reduces user count is going to have a negative impact on "total nodes" which is bad because that is the actual important number.
Jratcliffe recently made a post about how he is on the side of core about recent matters. I like him and I respect how he can be seemingly teetering on the edge about whether or not to support core but his arguments and cores are flawed.
First, If we build bitcoin to be a sort of "doomsday prepper" coin, we have a sort of problem. The problem is that at any given point in time the entire bitcoin network is run on a single computer. That means whatever minimum figure you must allow for, the entire bitcoin network will be restricted to the weakest link in the chain. IF world governments become hostile to bitcoin, then the value will surely be lower. If world governments are hostile to bitcoin then exchanges won't be legal so moving large amounts of money between bitcoin and other currencies won't be easily possible. This will destroy liquidity and reduce the amount of people willing to use it. Will it kill bitcoin? Probably not. But here is the key observation: When bitcoin was in its infancy and used largely as a tool of silk road it worked just fine. You don't need a high value coin to work in the face of state/government adversity. You need a high value coin with high liquidity for other LEGAL things like real estate, stock and asset trading, a store of value that you don't have to worry about being arrested for using in a back street alley. Since any coin can be used in the event of total government world tyranny then why would you prevent bitcoin from growing because of this scenario? Why are you planning for failure? Any new or old coin can do that and maybe even one with more fungible features than bitcoin has.
so to reiterate the point: The concept of "decentralization" isn't well defined and is somewhat subjective. The importance of decentralization is not that everyone must run a full node, but rather it is that if there is any government hostility we can simply move mining to a non-hostile government which prevents attacks against mining and shutting down the backbone of the network. If bitcoin plans for success and makes the "weakest link in the chain" a somewhat modern computer with a modern broadband connection then we can handle MANY more users and likely this means more full nodes.
submitted by specialenmity to btc [link] [comments]

Log of AMA @ ark.io/slack with bitbay.market - @dzimbeck (David Zimbeck), @Munti (Bjørn Alsos)

dr10 Let us all welcome team from :bitbay: bitbay.market :bitbay: - @dzimbeck (David zimbeck ) and @Munti (Bjørn Alsos). You can all start asking them questions. I'd ask team from bitbay.market to use @ username to the one they are responding to and I'd like to ask all the community to give them some time to catch up if too many questions in backlog, before asking more so questions don't get lost. Thank you!
dzimbeck Hi
dr10 Hello
Munti Hi
dzimbeck Wow you guys have quite the slack. 7k people
dzimbeck very professional site too, always noticed that
dr10 haha, yeah grew a bit over time
dzimbeck Also a decent domain.
arigard @dzimbeck Man, I remember you from back in the day in Blackcoin
dzimbeck Haha yes that is where I started
dr10 okay guys, start with your questions :wink:
Munti Is there anyone helping us keep track of any questions we might miss because we are busy answering?
dzimbeck But I'm not the dev of Blackcoin
dzimbeck I only wrote Halo into it because I needed an alt
dr10 I have an eye on the chat and people notice when you didnt answer it, dont worry :smile:
dzimbeck and didn't want to start a pump thing
tranzer What is BitBay in few words. Are you anonymous marketplace? (edited)
dzimbeck Unbreakable contracts, Anonymous serverless markets and rolling peg
dzimbeck all of those features are extremely important for decentralization and computer science in general
dzimbeck "Unbreakable contracts" is the non-technical term for "Double deposit escrow"
dzimbeck It works by both parties placing a deposit in a joint account
dzimbeck and if they cheat each other they both lose their funds when the time limit expires
dzimbeck making the contract somewhat unbreakable
dzimbeck regardless of what is agreed to
btcmacroecon what if one cheats the other?
dzimbeck since it's a joint account
btcmacroecon hunt them down?
dzimbeck you need that person to sign off
dzimbeck so they lose money
dzimbeck they can't cheat you
dzimbeck example:
dzimbeck you want to buy a guitar
dzimbeck which costs 100 dollars
dzimbeck so you put up a deposit of 100 and also 100 into the joint account
dzimbeck the seller also puts up 100 to guarantee shipping and their own honesty
dzimbeck when the seller sends the guitar if you steal it
dzimbeck then seller won't sign off on the contract
dzimbeck causing both parties to lose money
dzimbeck (you just paid 200 for a 100 dollar it)
dzimbeck So this forces users to work together
dzimbeck better than E-bay with arbiters
dzimbeck in fact.. I am shocked this isn't the industry standard
tranzer Are there any limits on how much can someone sell or buy item for?
dzimbeck I've been doing this for 4 years since BitHalo started
Munti When you use double deposit escrow, your protection is based upon the fact that no one can gain anything by breaking the deal. That pretty much eliminates scammers as there is no incentive for them.
btcmacroecon what if the seller "says" the other stole the guitar, when in reality it was received, it's jus seller wont sign off on it to be a dick
dzimbeck No limits
dzimbeck and deposits are negotiable (edited)
donze Nice idea
ulyssessyoungo interesting
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Because the seller will lose money if he does
Munti I actually just bought a property in our marketplace. Got the paperwork in the mail today
donze Your market is active?
dzimbeck Being a dick doesn't profit a dime
donze Or work in progress
dzimbeck It actually costs money to be a dick
dzimbeck which is what we WANT
arigard @dzimbeck is that similar to the two way mad escrow Particl are working on?
ulyssessyoungo I like the sound of that
dzimbeck we want jerks to be broke
dzimbeck we want politicians to be the ones begging for food on the street
ulyssessyoungo do you have any system beyond that
Munti Our marketplace has been operational since early 2015
ulyssessyoungo to see if people honor the contracts?
ulyssessyoungo like user history or something
dzimbeck Oh there is tons of systems in BitBay
little_round Particl took it from bitbay
dzimbeck we actually have a wall of features
ulyssessyoungo I mean like
ulyssessyoungo say a guy has a history of blowing up contracts
dzimbeck http://bitbay.market/wall
ulyssessyoungo are those people easily identified as bad business?
tranzer Do you have numbers of how many people "were dicks" and how much was already agreed upon in your marketplace (like yearly turnaround)?
dzimbeck Yes
dzimbeck You can see how many contracts their profile has blown up
dzimbeck so you can mathematically calculate what their deposit should be!
dzimbeck It's like the perfect escrow for p2p transactions
ulyssessyoungo that's nice
Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face:
ulyssessyoungo So like a reputation system?
ulyssessyoungo I always check vendor reputations on alibaba, amazon etc.
arigard @Munti really? Interesting..
dzimbeck And it's been working for 3+ years it was actually the worlds first smart contracts
dzimbeck Yep
btcmacroecon is there a scenario when a seller would lose money if it harmed the buyer, even if seller loses money, adversely affecting the buyer, even if guitar received, to cause buyer to lose money? Or woul buyer come out ahead cause of guitar, or would that mean net loss for buyer in this scenario, despite "seller wouldn't do it cause he loses money assumption"
dzimbeck we have a reputation system
dzimbeck Yes you are right
dzimbeck but consider this @btcmacroecon
shtand Does the seller always match 100% of the value of what they're selling?
dzimbeck The seller does cause buyer to lose
dzimbeck but now they have proof they are blowing up contracts
dzimbeck who would want to work with that seller later?
dzimbeck Also that seller would be asked in future deals for a LARGER deposit
btcmacroecon ok and ebay has good marketplace for reputation.
dzimbeck meaning being a jerk is progressive;y cost inhibitive
dzimbeck And this reputation system there is no way to lie about it
Munti @dzimbeck I just noticed we both forget to use @ to make it clear who we are answering
dzimbeck because there is cryptographic proof you blew up the funds
btcmacroecon ok good to wait for established track record
dzimbeck I will use the @ more thanks
dzimbeck @shtand Not always
ulyssessyoungo eBay is good with the reputation system but not so much the arbitration
ulyssessyoungo so that makes me interested in alternatives
dzimbeck matching 1:1 is a great way to deal with strangers you don't trust
dzimbeck But a great seller might only put up 10%
ulyssessyoungo i've been screwed selling some high ticket items on ebay before, not terribly so but enough to make me wonder what the point of a middleman is if they just side with the buyer in most cases
dzimbeck exactly!!
donze safex will be full anonymous and will give dividends to those who own it, what are the advantages of bitbay other than being ahead in the roadmap?
dzimbeck But guys this isn't just buying and selling
dzimbeck who here has outsourced?
btcmacroecon What about where damage or not represented product as advertised? same thing? comes down to reputation scores?
dzimbeck @donze that would be the rolling peg we will get to that
arigard Does Bitbay have any anon functionality?
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Realize a seller loses funds for damaged items if blown up. He will be much more motivated to work with buyer than he would be in e-bay
dzimbeck BitBays markets are anon
Munti @ donze If safex is able to pay dividends, they will need to take that money from somewhere. Fees? We have no fees (edited)
dzimbeck because they use Bitmessage
dzimbeck and we don't bloat the blockchain
dzimbeck because Bitmessage is p2p
dzimbeck and no chain is used
shtand what's determining who a 'great seller' is and what % they need to match then?
dzimbeck thus no servers
kimchi ...where does bitbay profit come from?
tranzer How is BitBay team being funded?
dzimbeck sender is hidden because messages are passed around making it hard to find the origin
dzimbeck decoding messages is plausible deniability because nobody knows if you have decryption key
dzimbeck (a market is a shared key)
dzimbeck @shtand A great seller would be someone with tons of contracts that didn't blow up
RQDxRocket joined #trading_altcoins.
arigard What about transactions, are they hidden too?
Munti @kimchi BitBay in itself does not need profit. The holders of the coin will get their profit from higher value because we gain adoption. and we are years ahead in this race, so should have a decent chance to increase price a lot
dzimbeck @kimchi I don't profit much from BitBay. We are mostly self funded
moon joined #trading_altcoins.
ulyssessyoungo Yeah it's not a centralized service so i don't see why it would need "profit" given that it's just a network
btcmacroecon does bitbay have any interest in their service being used with other projects to form a marketplace? any room for collaboration if buyers / sellers can be rounded up for establishing marketplace, reputation, including commodity trading?
ulyssessyoungo BAY is POS right?
tranzer Is BitBay POS or mineable or what consensus algo does it use?
dzimbeck @arigard Transactions aren't anon
dzimbeck but I'm a big ffan of zero knowledge proofs
dzimbeck There is ways to hide the person broadcasting using Bitmessage
dzimbeck but I haven't implemented
dzimbeck I'm a purist so if an anon route is chosen later then it will be on a very high level
arigard Will you be looking to do those kinds of things in the future? Maybe something like Zerocoin etc?
dzimbeck @tranzer POS
kimchi When can I see the beta version?
Munti @kimchi Also, Double deposit escrow ties up a lot of money, so when marketplace becomes really active , that will have tremendous impact on coin supply (reduced supply because of DDE). An average daily turnover on our marketplace of 1k dollars can create demand for as much as 30k-50k dollars worth of Bay (edited)
dzimbeck Maybe a side chain arigard
dzimbeck Since the main chain doesn't need to be anon
dzimbeck also anon would interfere with the rolling peg
dzimbeck Jesus zero proof:heart_eyes:
dzimbeck depending on what i choose for it
donze What is actual year trade volume of bitbay?
Munti @btcmacroecon BitBay is open for working with partners
dzimbeck @ulyssessyoungo yeah profit from escrow is not wise since it eliminates the middle man, we would not want the liability
dzimbeck also I meant to say earlier
dzimbeck these contracts work with employees too
dzimbeck so an employee is forced to honor his/her word
dzimbeck and employer is forced to pay
dzimbeck so no more unreliable outsourcers
Munti @donze Trade volume varies a lot like it does for most coins
dzimbeck It's been over a million a lot
btcmacroecon what do you think about creating a trading floor for commodities, or whatever "product" or "service" say "electronics" or "beer" or "metals"
dzimbeck but then it goes down to 50-500k
dzimbeck We don't fake our volume
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck that is why, this is a very organic project
dzimbeck You see I used to be BitHalo
dzimbeck which was years before Ethereum
dzimbeck and was hired on to the BitBay project, the people who hired me disappeared
dzimbeck so the community and myself took it over
dzimbeck making it pretty organic
ulyssessyoungo I have been in your Slack for some time, i can vouch that you guys seem to be one of the more transparent teams.
Munti @btcmacroecon We already kind of have a trading floor for commodities. We have a fully working marketplace. In one of the comming updates we will also add templates for auctions.
dzimbeck BitHalo is still active but it's worth pointing out that all new templates and features will be withheld from BitHalo to give BitBay maximum impact
Bitbay1 uploaded this image: m2.jpg 1 Comment
btcmacroecon i like the concept and not of ebay as a seller given their fees, or as a buyer with paypal.
ulyssessyoungo lol those boots
dzimbeck Ebays biggest problem is scam buyers
dzimbeck no way to stop it
dzimbeck In our platform that is not going to happen
dzimbeck And let me stress something else
dzimbeck This is Bitcoin
dzimbeck which is anonymous
dzimbeck so scams are more prevalent
dzimbeck which is why it shocks me
dzimbeck that this isn't the industry standard for escrow
btcmacroecon but the man is wise
dzimbeck Plus we don't have to deal with arbiters
dzimbeck the analogy is you go to court... would you trust 12 peers and a judge to decide your fate?
dzimbeck I wouldn't
dzimbeck A witness where it's your word against theirs
dzimbeck This is a better system. There is no judge
dzimbeck just perp and victim
btcmacroecon i havent been to court once where the truth was spoken
dzimbeck empowering victims a little bit more
dzimbeck "instant karma"
dzimbeck That is exactly why I made this
btcmacroecon i had proof attorney was lying but judge refused to let me play it as i ha proo
dzimbeck Oh jesus
dzimbeck that sucks
btcmacroecon i was going to hit play in courtroom but she freaked out on the bench said i would not play it in her courtroom!
V01D Would there be any backlash against the name bitbay in the future if a company like eBay felt threatened?
dzimbeck Yeah also realize that losing a deposit makes a victim feel like the person who screwed them paid for it
btcmacroecon protected the liar
dzimbeck I don't think so but we can always rebrand
dzimbeck there is an exchange called BitBay too
dzimbeck timing was almost the same as ours
btcmacroecon 591 price on bay on bittrex
dzimbeck we had an international presence first
dzimbeck As for price
Munti @VO1D I don't see how ebay could do something about that. But then I'm not a lawyer
dzimbeck This IS a trading channel
V01D I see, thank you
dzimbeck we should talk about the rolling peg
btcmacroecon i sold all bay at 860
dzimbeck So when the project started I wasn't the founder
btcmacroecon pissed i could have got 870
dzimbeck so I knew there had to be a way to protect investors in case something bad happened
Munti LOL
dzimbeck So the rolling peg was designed
dzimbeck similar to an economic crawling peg
dzimbeck The way it works is this: we can control the supply of the coin by simply freezing it
dzimbeck so as most coins only inflate
dzimbeck this coin does both
dzimbeck it inflates and deflates
yin :open_mouth:
dzimbeck but it only freezes the coins temporarily to stop dumps on the market
dzimbeck and it does so exactly fairly
codnose It's been a bad 24 hours for lots of alts. It will bounce back @btcmacroecon ;)
dzimbeck coins have memory in this system so each coin knows it's own liquidity
funkedelics proof to back up your claim? Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 7:09 PM
dzimbeck reddit
btcmacroecon yah i hope to reposition on this coin as we speak
codnose Good few days for bay recently. I'm holding since a while back
dzimbeck there is proof where I fought with veritasBS from ShadowCash
dzimbeck They tried to reverse my code
Bitbay1 Freezing via decentralized voting?
dzimbeck it was famous
funkedelics link?
Munti @funkedelics On reddit as David said. I'm sure we can find a link for you after this session is over
dzimbeck Someone else can find it
dzimbeck @funkedelics
dzimbeck It is on the blackcoin subreddit
btcmacroecon what are you doing to avoid illegal activity, kyc, and silk road activity?
dzimbeck if you wanna look
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon I have a mod key which users subscribe to
dzimbeck which is handed out
dzimbeck so decentralized mod i guess
dzimbeck also users encrypt their IP within their orders
dzimbeck so if for some reason a swat team shows up at my house I just tell them they are free to use it
kimchi What is the return or refund?..
dzimbeck In theory we shouldn't need to deal with silk road type problems
btcmacroecon id say get a fkn warrant, shut the door
dzimbeck since we don't host anything
dzimbeck That too
codnose Rolling peg sounds very interesting. Is there a link here?
dzimbeck But we don't live in a fair world @btcmacroecon
dzimbeck USA arrested a guy in Greece who was a Russian citizen
dzimbeck nonsense
btcmacroecon and those that vote i big corrupt government blame trump
dzimbeck https://bitbay.market/about/pegging/ BitBay Rolling Peg - BitBay Price volatility is cryptocurrency's biggest challenge - BitBay's rolling peg will reduce volatility by dynamically controlling supply. Learn more here.
dzimbeck Never blame Trump
dzimbeck blame military intelligence
dzimbeck and compartmentalization
Munti @codnose our site is going through a little redesign atm, but the info on the rolling peg will be back up soon
btcmacroecon new vorld odor! I blame "globalism"
imyb commented on Bitbay1’s file m2.jpg Is this really what it's going to look like?
dzimbeck :smile:
codnose Great thanks @Munti
Munti LOL, it was back up (edited)
dzimbeck well whatever powerful people do
dzimbeck it's our job to come up with solutions like unbreakable contracts
dzimbeck these contracts work in an anarchy
dzimbeck literally
dzimbeck The rolling peg is meant to allow low cap coins
dzimbeck to thrive
little_round @imyb No, it will be changed
dzimbeck because the control of supply lets us force the price
dzimbeck by voting on supply
yin damn your product sounds awesome! but you need a redesign of your website :smile:
dzimbeck so example
btcmacroecon so you in essence have a dashboard already active.
dzimbeck if a user has 1000 coins at 100% at .10 cents per coin
WeeMan Mike joined #trading_altcoins.
dzimbeck and the network deflates to 50%
dzimbeck he would have 500 coins liquid and 500 frozen
Munti @btcmacroecon What do you mean by dashboard?
dzimbeck he can move the liquid coins as much as he wants
btcmacroecon you have a marketplace or dashboard like ebay has basically?
dzimbeck the frozen coins he can move but with a penalty a one month delay
Munti @btcmacroecon Yes (edited)
dzimbeck which makes a secondary market for trading frozen coins
codnose Like the eBay dashboard right @btcmacroecon ?
dzimbeck at a more speculative value
btcmacroecon you just need to expand on it with volume
Bitbay1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9hEpu8gZMzEcP22rMYX0Iw/videos YouTube BitBay Official BitBay youtube channel
dzimbeck we can assume his liquid coins would be worth about double than before if demand is about the same
btcmacroecon do you offer any affiliate programs to market for that volume?
dzimbeck Good idea
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Working on that now
dzimbeck We have just started discussions about incentives
dzimbeck @kimchi please elaborate
dzimbeck return or refund on what?
kimchi I bought shoes. But what if a brick comes? There is an image on top that sells shoes.
dzimbeck Then seller would pay 100 dollars
dzimbeck if you blow it up
dzimbeck so negotiate a refund
dzimbeck the seller will most definitely reconsider
dzimbeck since he doesn't want to pay 100 dollars to be a joker
dzimbeck You can cancel contracts
dzimbeck returning all funds
Anoeng joined #trading_altcoins.
dzimbeck upon mutual consent
dzimbeck everything is consent
btcmacroecon does bitbay have the ability to accept payment in a variety of cryptocurrency? I think that's where volume could come in, or a gateway to exchange tokens and buyer / seller can arrive at payment and yet can be worked via bitbay smart contract or escrowing? could that work, is it possible, if not care to explore it?
dzimbeck the way a contract should be
dzimbeck Yes
codnose Ha that's awesome actually. Why would a seller send anything else knowing they'd lose their deposit ?
dzimbeck You can use Ark to pay
dzimbeck Bay is only used as a deposit
dzimbeck you might have to specify the coins you would accept in your contract
ulyssessyoungo nice
ulyssessyoungo i like that
btcmacroecon and what about dogecoin for example?
codnose Yeah that's cool
ulyssessyoungo Definitely adds to the viability of the platform
codnose Whatcoin? Lol
dzimbeck yeah codnose it forces honesty
dzimbeck and the same for employees
Munti @btcmacroecon Also, our platform is very broad. You can use it for almost anything. We already had all kinds of things sold there from pins to property. Many coins have also been sold there. Our market is like an improved localbitcoin. Binary opptions is also you can find on our marketoplace regularly. And I'm sure we havent even scrathced the surface yet. In the future we will have API's so ppl can tailor their own version of our marketplace.
dzimbeck if I hire someone using this system
btcmacroecon ok deposit only, making more sense now
ulyssessyoungo BAY as a currency would certainly take off best after the Rolling Peg
dzimbeck they better do what they say
ulyssessyoungo but in the meantime that's awesome that you can use other coins
dzimbeck I actually used to it motivate myself
Bitbay1 Why not sell Ark for Bay on the market :slightly_smiling_face:
Bitbay1 or Btc
dzimbeck had my friend blow up my money if I didn't do my daily errands
dzimbeck imagine having 10 grand deterrent
dzimbeck :smile:
bivins Greetings
dzimbeck You can trade coins on the market
dzimbeck especially microtrade
codnose You bought some land using this you said @Munti ?
dzimbeck but it is slow
dzimbeck for that I recommend atomic trade
dzimbeck It's not that fast paced trading that traders demand...
dzimbeck but
codnose No worries about losing any money ? I take it it wasn't just a few dollars
dzimbeck Someone did sell IOTA on our platform
dzimbeck and did lots of deals
Bitbay1 yes before IOTA came into the exchanges
Munti @codnose Yes I did. Got the paperwork in the mail today. 5 acres of land in California. (And I live in Norway) (edited)
prasanth can we stake coins in the market client??
Munti Yes
dzimbeck Staking is done using 2 keys
dzimbeck so you can actually stake over LAN too
tranzer Could BitBay somehow bridge with Ark and offer their services to Ark users?
dzimbeck using 2 computers
dzimbeck it's called "cold staking"
dzimbeck no hacking is possible here
dzimbeck ever
dzimbeck you can hide keys in images
btcmacroecon ok i admit failure on setting up CoinURL as I tried to set up online store, to sell some code, my wildlife photography, and rocks and gems I prospect, I'd like to set up BitBay on an Iframe into my site, and capture affiliate biz. Sounds like this is almost possible, and I could sell my jade right through my site, at least offer it up, right?
dzimbeck and have dual passwords and use 2 computers to sign transactions automated
Munti @tranzer We would have to look into that. But I don't see any reason why we could not.
dzimbeck We need a web wallet
dzimbeck that is our biggest challenge
dzimbeck since I made this with a "security first" attitude
dzimbeck being a cryptographer (edited)
dzimbeck I forgot the reason to make everything web based
Munti @btcmacroecon We are not quite there yet, but yes, that's where we're going
dzimbeck Didn't want to sacrifice security
dzimbeck now I realize there is a need for web based platforms
codnose I follow you on twitter and saw that mentioned the other day. It's coming soon? @dzimbeck
dzimbeck that sacrifice a little security for speed and ease of use in phones
dzimbeck A web wallet?
codnose Yeah
dzimbeck Yeah well we will have a basic web wallet very soon
dzimbeck its actually a very nice one (edited)
dzimbeck But I was referring to a market wallet
dzimbeck one with the full contract implementation
dzimbeck we hope to do that after the peg is successful
Munti Keep an eye on our next weekly update (sunday) for roadmap for the rest of this year. You will get details there
dzimbeck since it's more important to deliver on what I promise
dzimbeck than to make up new features
dzimbeck aka "scope creep" a programmers worst enemy
mergatroid Hello
dzimbeck Hi
mergatroid Please comment on recent news around SEC delistings on bittrex - what steps are you taking to communicate with user base as to whether your a security and what you plan to do if you are classified as such
dzimbeck The rolling peg is the priority
dzimbeck Since Tether is unreliable
dzimbeck this is a decentralized peg
dzimbeck that isn't fixed at a certain price
dzimbeck so it can "roll" the price up
codnose Sounds like you have a lot of nice things planned :)
dzimbeck so it starts at say 5 cents
dzimbeck and slowly rolls up to 10 cents
dzimbeck over X amount of time
dzimbeck after that we would love to focus on web implementations
dzimbeck however anyone who wants to plug this into their site should contact us, we can set up some API calls for sure
Munti @mergatroid I just became aware of the SEC issue on Bittrex today, and have not had time to study it. But going by the little I did read, it doesn't seem to be a problem for us.
mergatroid Ok - so no plan so far understand
dzimbeck we aren't a security
dzimbeck because we don't pay dividends
mergatroid Thankyou
codnose Just on your website now @dzimbeck @Munti
dr10 OK we are approaching 1 hour mark. If you guys have any questions left, go ahead. Anything bitbay.market team would like to add or tell - feel free to do.
V01D Thanks for your time bitbay team
dzimbeck Thanks for doing this! It was fun. And maybe I have a few questions about Ark later
dzimbeck :slightly_smiling_face:
codnose Looking good. Thanks for stopping by :)
dzimbeck Any other questions?
dzimbeck Perhaps regarding the peg, contracts or markets?
Boris Is dzimbeck a god?
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck no
dzimbeck I bleed
codnose Haha I'd heard that too
codnose At least in coding terms lol
dr10 Thank you David and Bjørn for taking the time to do this AMA! All the best with the project and you are always welcome to hang around our Slack
Munti If anyone wants more info, you are welcome to our slack http://bitbay.market/wp-login.php?action=slack-invitation
dzimbeck Honestly a little bit of effort is all these things take
dzimbeck Thanks dr10
Munti Thanks for having us. This was fun
submitted by Dr10tv to BitBay [link] [comments]

Log of AMA with bitbay.market - @dzimbeck (David Zimbeck), @Munti (Bjørn Alsos)

dr10 Let us all welcome team from :bitbay: bitbay.market :bitbay: - @dzimbeck (David zimbeck ) and @Munti (Bjørn Alsos). You can all start asking them questions. I'd ask team from bitbay.market to use @ username to the one they are responding to and I'd like to ask all the community to give them some time to catch up if too many questions in backlog, before asking more so questions don't get lost. Thank you!
dzimbeck Hi
dr10 Hello
Munti Hi
dzimbeck Wow you guys have quite the slack. 7k people
dzimbeck very professional site too, always noticed that
dr10 haha, yeah grew a bit over time
dzimbeck Also a decent domain.
arigard @dzimbeck Man, I remember you from back in the day in Blackcoin
dzimbeck Haha yes that is where I started
dr10 okay guys, start with your questions :wink:
Munti Is there anyone helping us keep track of any questions we might miss because we are busy answering?
dzimbeck But I'm not the dev of Blackcoin
dzimbeck I only wrote Halo into it because I needed an alt
dr10 I have an eye on the chat and people notice when you didnt answer it, dont worry :smile:
dzimbeck and didn't want to start a pump thing
tranzer What is BitBay in few words. Are you anonymous marketplace? (edited)
dzimbeck Unbreakable contracts, Anonymous serverless markets and rolling peg
dzimbeck all of those features are extremely important for decentralization and computer science in general
dzimbeck "Unbreakable contracts" is the non-technical term for "Double deposit escrow"
dzimbeck It works by both parties placing a deposit in a joint account
dzimbeck and if they cheat each other they both lose their funds when the time limit expires
dzimbeck making the contract somewhat unbreakable
dzimbeck regardless of what is agreed to
btcmacroecon what if one cheats the other?
dzimbeck since it's a joint account
btcmacroecon hunt them down?
dzimbeck you need that person to sign off
dzimbeck so they lose money
dzimbeck they can't cheat you
dzimbeck example:
dzimbeck you want to buy a guitar
dzimbeck which costs 100 dollars
dzimbeck so you put up a deposit of 100 and also 100 into the joint account
dzimbeck the seller also puts up 100 to guarantee shipping and their own honesty
dzimbeck when the seller sends the guitar if you steal it
dzimbeck then seller won't sign off on the contract
dzimbeck causing both parties to lose money
dzimbeck (you just paid 200 for a 100 dollar it)
dzimbeck So this forces users to work together
dzimbeck better than E-bay with arbiters
dzimbeck in fact.. I am shocked this isn't the industry standard
tranzer Are there any limits on how much can someone sell or buy item for?
dzimbeck I've been doing this for 4 years since BitHalo started
Munti When you use double deposit escrow, your protection is based upon the fact that no one can gain anything by breaking the deal. That pretty much eliminates scammers as there is no incentive for them.
btcmacroecon what if the seller "says" the other stole the guitar, when in reality it was received, it's jus seller wont sign off on it to be a dick
dzimbeck No limits
dzimbeck and deposits are negotiable (edited)
donze Nice idea
ulyssessyoungo interesting
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Because the seller will lose money if he does
Munti I actually just bought a property in our marketplace. Got the paperwork in the mail today
donze Your market is active?
dzimbeck Being a dick doesn't profit a dime
donze Or work in progress
dzimbeck It actually costs money to be a dick
dzimbeck which is what we WANT
arigard @dzimbeck is that similar to the two way mad escrow Particl are working on?
ulyssessyoungo I like the sound of that
dzimbeck we want jerks to be broke
dzimbeck we want politicians to be the ones begging for food on the street
ulyssessyoungo do you have any system beyond that
Munti Our marketplace has been operational since early 2015
ulyssessyoungo to see if people honor the contracts?
ulyssessyoungo like user history or something
dzimbeck Oh there is tons of systems in BitBay
little_round Particl took it from bitbay
dzimbeck we actually have a wall of features
ulyssessyoungo I mean like
ulyssessyoungo say a guy has a history of blowing up contracts
dzimbeck http://bitbay.market/wall
ulyssessyoungo are those people easily identified as bad business?
tranzer Do you have numbers of how many people "were dicks" and how much was already agreed upon in your marketplace (like yearly turnaround)?
dzimbeck Yes
dzimbeck You can see how many contracts their profile has blown up
dzimbeck so you can mathematically calculate what their deposit should be!
dzimbeck It's like the perfect escrow for p2p transactions
ulyssessyoungo that's nice
Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face:
ulyssessyoungo So like a reputation system?
ulyssessyoungo I always check vendor reputations on alibaba, amazon etc.
arigard @Munti really? Interesting..
dzimbeck And it's been working for 3+ years it was actually the worlds first smart contracts
dzimbeck Yep
btcmacroecon is there a scenario when a seller would lose money if it harmed the buyer, even if seller loses money, adversely affecting the buyer, even if guitar received, to cause buyer to lose money? Or woul buyer come out ahead cause of guitar, or would that mean net loss for buyer in this scenario, despite "seller wouldn't do it cause he loses money assumption"
dzimbeck we have a reputation system
dzimbeck Yes you are right
dzimbeck but consider this @btcmacroecon
shtand Does the seller always match 100% of the value of what they're selling?
dzimbeck The seller does cause buyer to lose
dzimbeck but now they have proof they are blowing up contracts
dzimbeck who would want to work with that seller later?
dzimbeck Also that seller would be asked in future deals for a LARGER deposit
btcmacroecon ok and ebay has good marketplace for reputation.
dzimbeck meaning being a jerk is progressive;y cost inhibitive
dzimbeck And this reputation system there is no way to lie about it
Munti @dzimbeck I just noticed we both forget to use @ to make it clear who we are answering
dzimbeck because there is cryptographic proof you blew up the funds
btcmacroecon ok good to wait for established track record
dzimbeck I will use the @ more thanks
dzimbeck @shtand Not always
ulyssessyoungo eBay is good with the reputation system but not so much the arbitration
ulyssessyoungo so that makes me interested in alternatives
dzimbeck matching 1:1 is a great way to deal with strangers you don't trust
dzimbeck But a great seller might only put up 10%
ulyssessyoungo i've been screwed selling some high ticket items on ebay before, not terribly so but enough to make me wonder what the point of a middleman is if they just side with the buyer in most cases
dzimbeck exactly!!
donze safex will be full anonymous and will give dividends to those who own it, what are the advantages of bitbay other than being ahead in the roadmap?
dzimbeck But guys this isn't just buying and selling
dzimbeck who here has outsourced?
btcmacroecon What about where damage or not represented product as advertised? same thing? comes down to reputation scores?
dzimbeck @donze that would be the rolling peg we will get to that
arigard Does Bitbay have any anon functionality?
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Realize a seller loses funds for damaged items if blown up. He will be much more motivated to work with buyer than he would be in e-bay
dzimbeck BitBays markets are anon
Munti @ donze If safex is able to pay dividends, they will need to take that money from somewhere. Fees? We have no fees (edited)
dzimbeck because they use Bitmessage
dzimbeck and we don't bloat the blockchain
dzimbeck because Bitmessage is p2p
dzimbeck and no chain is used
shtand what's determining who a 'great seller' is and what % they need to match then?
dzimbeck thus no servers
kimchi ...where does bitbay profit come from?
tranzer How is BitBay team being funded?
dzimbeck sender is hidden because messages are passed around making it hard to find the origin
dzimbeck decoding messages is plausible deniability because nobody knows if you have decryption key
dzimbeck (a market is a shared key)
dzimbeck @shtand A great seller would be someone with tons of contracts that didn't blow up
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arigard What about transactions, are they hidden too?
Munti @kimchi BitBay in itself does not need profit. The holders of the coin will get their profit from higher value because we gain adoption. and we are years ahead in this race, so should have a decent chance to increase price a lot
dzimbeck @kimchi I don't profit much from BitBay. We are mostly self funded
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ulyssessyoungo Yeah it's not a centralized service so i don't see why it would need "profit" given that it's just a network
btcmacroecon does bitbay have any interest in their service being used with other projects to form a marketplace? any room for collaboration if buyers / sellers can be rounded up for establishing marketplace, reputation, including commodity trading?
ulyssessyoungo BAY is POS right?
tranzer Is BitBay POS or mineable or what consensus algo does it use?
dzimbeck @arigard Transactions aren't anon
dzimbeck but I'm a big ffan of zero knowledge proofs
dzimbeck There is ways to hide the person broadcasting using Bitmessage
dzimbeck but I haven't implemented
dzimbeck I'm a purist so if an anon route is chosen later then it will be on a very high level
arigard Will you be looking to do those kinds of things in the future? Maybe something like Zerocoin etc?
dzimbeck @tranzer POS
kimchi When can I see the beta version?
Munti @kimchi Also, Double deposit escrow ties up a lot of money, so when marketplace becomes really active , that will have tremendous impact on coin supply (reduced supply because of DDE). An average daily turnover on our marketplace of 1k dollars can create demand for as much as 30k-50k dollars worth of Bay (edited)
dzimbeck Maybe a side chain arigard
dzimbeck Since the main chain doesn't need to be anon
dzimbeck also anon would interfere with the rolling peg
dzimbeck Jesus zero proof:heart_eyes:
dzimbeck depending on what i choose for it
donze What is actual year trade volume of bitbay?
Munti @btcmacroecon BitBay is open for working with partners
dzimbeck @ulyssessyoungo yeah profit from escrow is not wise since it eliminates the middle man, we would not want the liability
dzimbeck also I meant to say earlier
dzimbeck these contracts work with employees too
dzimbeck so an employee is forced to honor his/her word
dzimbeck and employer is forced to pay
dzimbeck so no more unreliable outsourcers
Munti @donze Trade volume varies a lot like it does for most coins
dzimbeck It's been over a million a lot
btcmacroecon what do you think about creating a trading floor for commodities, or whatever "product" or "service" say "electronics" or "beer" or "metals"
dzimbeck but then it goes down to 50-500k
dzimbeck We don't fake our volume
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck that is why, this is a very organic project
dzimbeck You see I used to be BitHalo
dzimbeck which was years before Ethereum
dzimbeck and was hired on to the BitBay project, the people who hired me disappeared
dzimbeck so the community and myself took it over
dzimbeck making it pretty organic
ulyssessyoungo I have been in your Slack for some time, i can vouch that you guys seem to be one of the more transparent teams.
Munti @btcmacroecon We already kind of have a trading floor for commodities. We have a fully working marketplace. In one of the comming updates we will also add templates for auctions.
dzimbeck BitHalo is still active but it's worth pointing out that all new templates and features will be withheld from BitHalo to give BitBay maximum impact
Bitbay1 uploaded this image: m2.jpg 1 Comment
btcmacroecon i like the concept and not of ebay as a seller given their fees, or as a buyer with paypal.
ulyssessyoungo lol those boots
dzimbeck Ebays biggest problem is scam buyers
dzimbeck no way to stop it
dzimbeck In our platform that is not going to happen
dzimbeck And let me stress something else
dzimbeck This is Bitcoin
dzimbeck which is anonymous
dzimbeck so scams are more prevalent
dzimbeck which is why it shocks me
dzimbeck that this isn't the industry standard for escrow
btcmacroecon but the man is wise
dzimbeck Plus we don't have to deal with arbiters
dzimbeck the analogy is you go to court... would you trust 12 peers and a judge to decide your fate?
dzimbeck I wouldn't
dzimbeck A witness where it's your word against theirs
dzimbeck This is a better system. There is no judge
dzimbeck just perp and victim
btcmacroecon i havent been to court once where the truth was spoken
dzimbeck empowering victims a little bit more
dzimbeck "instant karma"
dzimbeck That is exactly why I made this
btcmacroecon i had proof attorney was lying but judge refused to let me play it as i ha proo
dzimbeck Oh jesus
dzimbeck that sucks
btcmacroecon i was going to hit play in courtroom but she freaked out on the bench said i would not play it in her courtroom!
V01D Would there be any backlash against the name bitbay in the future if a company like eBay felt threatened?
dzimbeck Yeah also realize that losing a deposit makes a victim feel like the person who screwed them paid for it
btcmacroecon protected the liar
dzimbeck I don't think so but we can always rebrand
dzimbeck there is an exchange called BitBay too
dzimbeck timing was almost the same as ours
btcmacroecon 591 price on bay on bittrex
dzimbeck we had an international presence first
dzimbeck As for price
Munti @VO1D I don't see how ebay could do something about that. But then I'm not a lawyer
dzimbeck This IS a trading channel
V01D I see, thank you
dzimbeck we should talk about the rolling peg
btcmacroecon i sold all bay at 860
dzimbeck So when the project started I wasn't the founder
btcmacroecon pissed i could have got 870
dzimbeck so I knew there had to be a way to protect investors in case something bad happened
Munti LOL
dzimbeck So the rolling peg was designed
dzimbeck similar to an economic crawling peg
dzimbeck The way it works is this: we can control the supply of the coin by simply freezing it
dzimbeck so as most coins only inflate
dzimbeck this coin does both
dzimbeck it inflates and deflates
yin :open_mouth:
dzimbeck but it only freezes the coins temporarily to stop dumps on the market
dzimbeck and it does so exactly fairly
codnose It's been a bad 24 hours for lots of alts. It will bounce back @btcmacroecon ;)
dzimbeck coins have memory in this system so each coin knows it's own liquidity
funkedelics proof to back up your claim? Munti Actually particl (then shadowcoin) tried to hire David to make the marketplace for them many years ago. When he declined, they tried to revers enginer his code. They failed :slightly_smiling_face: Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 7:09 PM
dzimbeck reddit
btcmacroecon yah i hope to reposition on this coin as we speak
codnose Good few days for bay recently. I'm holding since a while back
dzimbeck there is proof where I fought with veritasBS from ShadowCash
dzimbeck They tried to reverse my code
Bitbay1 Freezing via decentralized voting?
dzimbeck it was famous
funkedelics link?
Munti @funkedelics On reddit as David said. I'm sure we can find a link for you after this session is over
dzimbeck Someone else can find it
dzimbeck @funkedelics
dzimbeck It is on the blackcoin subreddit
btcmacroecon what are you doing to avoid illegal activity, kyc, and silk road activity?
dzimbeck if you wanna look
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon I have a mod key which users subscribe to
dzimbeck which is handed out
dzimbeck so decentralized mod i guess
dzimbeck also users encrypt their IP within their orders
dzimbeck so if for some reason a swat team shows up at my house I just tell them they are free to use it
kimchi What is the return or refund?..
dzimbeck In theory we shouldn't need to deal with silk road type problems
btcmacroecon id say get a fkn warrant, shut the door
dzimbeck since we don't host anything
dzimbeck That too
codnose Rolling peg sounds very interesting. Is there a link here?
dzimbeck But we don't live in a fair world @btcmacroecon
dzimbeck USA arrested a guy in Greece who was a Russian citizen
dzimbeck nonsense
btcmacroecon and those that vote i big corrupt government blame trump
dzimbeck https://bitbay.market/about/pegging/ BitBay Rolling Peg - BitBay Price volatility is cryptocurrency's biggest challenge - BitBay's rolling peg will reduce volatility by dynamically controlling supply. Learn more here.
dzimbeck Never blame Trump
dzimbeck blame military intelligence
dzimbeck and compartmentalization
Munti @codnose our site is going through a little redesign atm, but the info on the rolling peg will be back up soon
btcmacroecon new vorld odor! I blame "globalism"
imyb commented on Bitbay1’s file m2.jpg Is this really what it's going to look like?
dzimbeck :smile:
codnose Great thanks @Munti
Munti LOL, it was back up (edited)
dzimbeck well whatever powerful people do
dzimbeck it's our job to come up with solutions like unbreakable contracts
dzimbeck these contracts work in an anarchy
dzimbeck literally
dzimbeck The rolling peg is meant to allow low cap coins
dzimbeck to thrive
little_round @imyb No, it will be changed
dzimbeck because the control of supply lets us force the price
dzimbeck by voting on supply
yin damn your product sounds awesome! but you need a redesign of your website :smile:
dzimbeck so example
btcmacroecon so you in essence have a dashboard already active.
dzimbeck if a user has 1000 coins at 100% at .10 cents per coin
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dzimbeck and the network deflates to 50%
dzimbeck he would have 500 coins liquid and 500 frozen
Munti @btcmacroecon What do you mean by dashboard?
dzimbeck he can move the liquid coins as much as he wants
btcmacroecon you have a marketplace or dashboard like ebay has basically?
dzimbeck the frozen coins he can move but with a penalty a one month delay
Munti @btcmacroecon Yes (edited)
dzimbeck which makes a secondary market for trading frozen coins
codnose Like the eBay dashboard right @btcmacroecon ?
dzimbeck at a more speculative value
btcmacroecon you just need to expand on it with volume
Bitbay1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9hEpu8gZMzEcP22rMYX0Iw/videos YouTube BitBay Official BitBay youtube channel
dzimbeck we can assume his liquid coins would be worth about double than before if demand is about the same
btcmacroecon do you offer any affiliate programs to market for that volume?
dzimbeck Good idea
dzimbeck @btcmacroecon Working on that now
dzimbeck We have just started discussions about incentives
dzimbeck @kimchi please elaborate
dzimbeck return or refund on what?
kimchi I bought shoes. But what if a brick comes? There is an image on top that sells shoes.
dzimbeck Then seller would pay 100 dollars
dzimbeck if you blow it up
dzimbeck so negotiate a refund
dzimbeck the seller will most definitely reconsider
dzimbeck since he doesn't want to pay 100 dollars to be a joker
dzimbeck You can cancel contracts
dzimbeck returning all funds
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dzimbeck upon mutual consent
dzimbeck everything is consent
btcmacroecon does bitbay have the ability to accept payment in a variety of cryptocurrency? I think that's where volume could come in, or a gateway to exchange tokens and buyer / seller can arrive at payment and yet can be worked via bitbay smart contract or escrowing? could that work, is it possible, if not care to explore it?
dzimbeck the way a contract should be
dzimbeck Yes
codnose Ha that's awesome actually. Why would a seller send anything else knowing they'd lose their deposit ?
dzimbeck You can use Ark to pay
dzimbeck Bay is only used as a deposit
dzimbeck you might have to specify the coins you would accept in your contract
ulyssessyoungo nice
ulyssessyoungo i like that
btcmacroecon and what about dogecoin for example?
codnose Yeah that's cool
ulyssessyoungo Definitely adds to the viability of the platform
codnose Whatcoin? Lol
dzimbeck yeah codnose it forces honesty
dzimbeck and the same for employees
Munti @btcmacroecon Also, our platform is very broad. You can use it for almost anything. We already had all kinds of things sold there from pins to property. Many coins have also been sold there. Our market is like an improved localbitcoin. Binary opptions is also you can find on our marketoplace regularly. And I'm sure we havent even scrathced the surface yet. In the future we will have API's so ppl can tailor their own version of our marketplace.
dzimbeck if I hire someone using this system
btcmacroecon ok deposit only, making more sense now
ulyssessyoungo BAY as a currency would certainly take off best after the Rolling Peg
dzimbeck they better do what they say
ulyssessyoungo but in the meantime that's awesome that you can use other coins
dzimbeck I actually used to it motivate myself
Bitbay1 Why not sell Ark for Bay on the market :slightly_smiling_face:
Bitbay1 or Btc
dzimbeck had my friend blow up my money if I didn't do my daily errands
dzimbeck imagine having 10 grand deterrent
dzimbeck :smile:
bivins Greetings
dzimbeck You can trade coins on the market
dzimbeck especially microtrade
codnose You bought some land using this you said @Munti ?
dzimbeck but it is slow
dzimbeck for that I recommend atomic trade
dzimbeck It's not that fast paced trading that traders demand...
dzimbeck but
codnose No worries about losing any money ? I take it it wasn't just a few dollars
dzimbeck Someone did sell IOTA on our platform
dzimbeck and did lots of deals
Bitbay1 yes before IOTA came into the exchanges
Munti @codnose Yes I did. Got the paperwork in the mail today. 5 acres of land in California. (And I live in Norway) (edited)
prasanth can we stake coins in the market client??
Munti Yes
dzimbeck Staking is done using 2 keys
dzimbeck so you can actually stake over LAN too
tranzer Could BitBay somehow bridge with Ark and offer their services to Ark users?
dzimbeck using 2 computers
dzimbeck it's called "cold staking"
dzimbeck no hacking is possible here
dzimbeck ever
dzimbeck you can hide keys in images
btcmacroecon ok i admit failure on setting up CoinURL as I tried to set up online store, to sell some code, my wildlife photography, and rocks and gems I prospect, I'd like to set up BitBay on an Iframe into my site, and capture affiliate biz. Sounds like this is almost possible, and I could sell my jade right through my site, at least offer it up, right?
dzimbeck and have dual passwords and use 2 computers to sign transactions automated
Munti @tranzer We would have to look into that. But I don't see any reason why we could not.
dzimbeck We need a web wallet
dzimbeck that is our biggest challenge
dzimbeck since I made this with a "security first" attitude
dzimbeck being a cryptographer (edited)
dzimbeck I forgot the reason to make everything web based
Munti @btcmacroecon We are not quite there yet, but yes, that's where we're going
dzimbeck Didn't want to sacrifice security
dzimbeck now I realize there is a need for web based platforms
codnose I follow you on twitter and saw that mentioned the other day. It's coming soon? @dzimbeck
dzimbeck that sacrifice a little security for speed and ease of use in phones
dzimbeck A web wallet?
codnose Yeah
dzimbeck Yeah well we will have a basic web wallet very soon
dzimbeck its actually a very nice one (edited)
dzimbeck But I was referring to a market wallet
dzimbeck one with the full contract implementation
dzimbeck we hope to do that after the peg is successful
Munti Keep an eye on our next weekly update (sunday) for roadmap for the rest of this year. You will get details there
dzimbeck since it's more important to deliver on what I promise
dzimbeck than to make up new features
dzimbeck aka "scope creep" a programmers worst enemy
mergatroid Hello
dzimbeck Hi
mergatroid Please comment on recent news around SEC delistings on bittrex - what steps are you taking to communicate with user base as to whether your a security and what you plan to do if you are classified as such
dzimbeck The rolling peg is the priority
dzimbeck Since Tether is unreliable
dzimbeck this is a decentralized peg
dzimbeck that isn't fixed at a certain price
dzimbeck so it can "roll" the price up
codnose Sounds like you have a lot of nice things planned :)
dzimbeck so it starts at say 5 cents
dzimbeck and slowly rolls up to 10 cents
dzimbeck over X amount of time
dzimbeck after that we would love to focus on web implementations
dzimbeck however anyone who wants to plug this into their site should contact us, we can set up some API calls for sure
Munti @mergatroid I just became aware of the SEC issue on Bittrex today, and have not had time to study it. But going by the little I did read, it doesn't seem to be a problem for us.
mergatroid Ok - so no plan so far understand
dzimbeck we aren't a security
dzimbeck because we don't pay dividends
mergatroid Thankyou
codnose Just on your website now @dzimbeck @Munti
dr10 OK we are approaching 1 hour mark. If you guys have any questions left, go ahead. Anything bitbay.market team would like to add or tell - feel free to do.
V01D Thanks for your time bitbay team
dzimbeck Thanks for doing this! It was fun. And maybe I have a few questions about Ark later
dzimbeck :slightly_smiling_face:
codnose Looking good. Thanks for stopping by :)
dzimbeck Any other questions?
dzimbeck Perhaps regarding the peg, contracts or markets?
Boris Is dzimbeck a god?
dzimbeck :smile:
dzimbeck no
dzimbeck I bleed
codnose Haha I'd heard that too
codnose At least in coding terms lol
dr10 Thank you David and Bjørn for taking the time to do this AMA! All the best with the project and you are always welcome to hang around our Slack
Munti If anyone wants more info, you are welcome to our slack http://bitbay.market/wp-login.php?action=slack-invitation
dzimbeck Honestly a little bit of effort is all these things take
dzimbeck Thanks dr10
Munti Thanks for having us. This was fun
submitted by Dr10tv to ArkEcosystem [link] [comments]

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What Silk Road meant to the bitcoin economy: Some interesting background on the Silk Road has also emerged from the FBI report:[3] It appears that on a typical day, approximately $2.5 M passed ... The feds also shut down the Silk Road Tuesday, claiming that as much as $1.2B in transactions occurred during the Silk Road's lifetime. (Though due to Bitcoin's volatility as a currency that ... The original Silk Road marketplace has been shut down for well over seven years now and to this day, 444,000 bitcoin worth $4.8 billion is still missing. Just recently, a report focused on those ... Ethereum Mining Calculator; Litecoin mining Menu Toggle. Litecoin Mining Hardware; Litecoin Mining Calculator; Monero Mining Menu Toggle. Monero Mining Hardware; Monero Mining Calculator; You are at: Home » News » Where will Silk Road’s customers spend their Bitcoins now? Where will Silk Road’s customers spend their Bitcoins now? By Maria Santos Last updated on January 2, 2018 at 00:00 N In a recent transaction data, a popular darknet site Silk Road which sells drugs online seems to have moved USD 1 billion worth bitcoin from its cold wallet. In its early years, Bitcoin was known as the currency of the Darknet. People used it for all

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